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Author
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Topic: Average breathing rate
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pal_karcsi
Member
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posted 06-27-2009 01:34 PM
  
In the Poly School I was told that the average breathing rate is 16 bpm and 95% of the people breath between 10 and 24 bpm. So, if someone is breathing less than 10 bpm he is doing a countermeasusre.Ok , so what is the scientific rationale to say that 16 bpm is the average breating rate ? ------------------
Hól vagytok székelyek, e földet biztam rátok.
Elvették töletek,másé lett hazátok.
Vesszen Trianon !
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ckieso
Member
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posted 06-27-2009 06:56 PM
The information I learned is that the average BPM is 12-18. Anytime an examinee is under 12 I get suspicious. I record a chart of data while I am explaining how the polygraph works to get an idea of the examinee's 'normal' breathing pattern and compare that to the in-test data. If I see significant differences I confront the examinee and encourage him to discontinue what he is doing or he will automatically fail. IP: Logged |
pal_karcsi
Member
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posted 06-27-2009 07:35 PM
This data is from a conference in Mexico (D.Kraphol, 2.007 ).
OK, you say that the normal breathing rate is 12 to 18 bpm. Where is the data to support this ? It looks to me that its depends in which school did you studied or who told you that.
Anyway, where is the study to support this?------------------
Hól vagytok székelyek, e földet biztam rátok.
Elvették töletek,másé lett hazátok.
Vesszen Trianon !
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pal_karcsi
Member
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posted 06-27-2009 07:38 PM
I forgot to mention that many people´s normal respiration pattern is below 12 bpm ( and he is not doing any countermeasures ). Have you tried to breath at 12 bpm ? I have done that and for me is a high rate. Try it and let me know how you feel.------------------
Hól vagytok székelyek, e földet biztam rátok.
Elvették töletek,másé lett hazátok.
Vesszen Trianon !
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Bob
Member
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posted 06-28-2009 11:14 AM
pal karcsi;You asked: "So, if someone is breathing less than 10 bpm he is doing a countermeasure?". Short answer: in my viewpoint 'yes'.
Tabors Cylcopedic Medical Dictionary defines decreased respiration as: "respiration less than a normal rate for the individuals age. In adults, a respiratory rate of less than 12 bpm. Slower than normal respiratory rates occur after opiate or sedative use, during sleep, in coma, and many other conditions" Internet resources I've read would range the 'normal' breathing rate for adults as 10-24 (a well conditioned athlete may very well breathe at the slower rate 10-11bpm, where as someone in a higher state of arousal, or the heavy smoker, may breathe faster). In my view point, rates of 10-11 bpm are 'atyicpally slow' - and countermeasures are'probable'; whereas anything below 10 bpm, countermeasures are 'more than likely'. Something else to consider is the heart rate: fast heart rate- faster breathing, slow heart rate- slower breathing (using as a very general rule of thumb 4-5 heartbeats per breath); a Heart rate of 72 bpm would put breathing rate in the range of 14-18; with a heart rate of 80 bpm, would put breathing rate in range of 16-20 bpm. The question becomes was he breathing at less than 10 bpm because he was trying to defeat the test because he's lying (countermeasure) or rather trying to 'relax' because he nervous\scared but being truthful (non-countermeasure). Like ciesko, I address anything under 12 with the examinee but I do so in a'soft' manner. Bob
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pal_karcsi
Member
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posted 06-29-2009 09:50 AM
Guess what ? For curiosity I ran MATLAB and generate a random array of 1.000 subjects by 1.000 times (equals 1.000.000 data points ,yes one million ) and got an average of 10 bpm, not 12 bpm.
So maybe the average bpm are 10 bpm.------------------
Hól vagytok székelyek, e földet biztam rátok.
Elvették töletek,másé lett hazátok.
Vesszen Trianon !
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Taylor
Member
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posted 06-29-2009 11:36 AM
I just counted my breathing for one minute and had 13 respirations (I am relaxed) If I am nervous it will become more rapid and shallow unless I am controlling my breathing.I look for 13-16 on all examinees. If they are having 10 respirations per minute I also suspect CM's. I will start the chart before notifying the subject and before the pressure is put in the cuff to record and view their normal respirations. Then after staring the chart 'x' if there are dramatic changes....we have a problem. Also if they control their breathing on the first chart I will increase the pressure in the cardio cuff on the second chart so they have something else to think about. From my own experience, the only time I have had an examinee with 10 (legitimate) respirations per minute is when the examinee is a runner, swimmer or sharp shooter. Again, by recording inbetween charts or before you can see their normal pattern. Just my .02 cents worth. Taylor IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
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posted 06-29-2009 12:09 PM
MATLAB?And 1000 subjects to bootstrap like that? Nice. Did you obtain the respiratory rate/feature data yourself, from the raw data? Or from another source? If so, can you tell us how? It's not that easy, considering that the raw data will be 30 or so samples per second, times about 360 seconds (5 min. chart), times three charts. That's over 32 million samples. Multiplied by 1,000,000 million random selections - makes a whole lotta numbers. What are doing with it?
r
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)
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pal_karcsi
Member
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posted 07-01-2009 06:55 PM
This a nice research project to do.
Let´s say we have 250 subjects and measure their respiration rate every minute during a total of 10 minutes in a relaxed enviroment. And will see what is the average breathing rate in this group.
If anyone want to help in this study is welcome.
If don´t trust in any encyclopaedia or because "MR. X" from the Poly School told me that.
I´m a researcher not a believer.------------------
Hól vagytok székelyek, e földet biztam rátok.
Elvették töletek,másé lett hazátok.
Vesszen Trianon !
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Barry C
Member
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posted 07-01-2009 07:33 PM
We had this conversation once before, and I think I dug out one of my EMT books or one of my wife's medical books and found an average breathing rate for adults. In fact, our EMT protocol book has such rates and what we are to do (i.e., how to treat) if the patient isn't within the average parameters. In other words, the work has already been done some place(s) with much larger sample sizes. These stats don't come from polygraph: they come from the medical community. What we need to recall is that breathing rates, HR, etc, all have their own bell curves, and some of the population is going to fall outside of the third standard deviation and still be breathing "normally" as in it's normal for them but not the general population.IP: Logged |
jrwygant
Member
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posted 07-02-2009 04:15 PM
Regardless of rate, continuous slowed breathing is usually easy to see with a computerized instrument by comparison to the rate either before announcing the beginning of a chart or just after announcing it is finished. However, I think Honts, Barland, and others have cautioned that nearly as many truthful examinees use countermeasures as those who are lying, and the most common one is controlled breathing.IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
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posted 07-02-2009 04:42 PM
Yes, that's correct. I seem to recall it's around 40 to / or 60% of truthful folks who control breathing - spontaneously (that is, without reading somebody's book).IP: Logged |
Buster
Member
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posted 07-02-2009 08:44 PM
When I was in the academy I was constantly getting yelled at for controlling my breathing, and I was not trying to slow breathe, I was taking fake tests with no reason to lie---I was just trying to relax and give good charts. IP: Logged |
pal_karcsi
Member
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posted 07-04-2009 10:32 AM
Buster is right ! Many normal people breath at a 10 to 8 bpm without trying to do any countermeasure.
This is relaxed breathing not controlled breathing .------------------
Hól vagytok székelyek, e földet biztam rátok.
Elvették töletek,másé lett hazátok.
Vesszen Trianon !
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Gordon H. Barland
Member
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posted 07-04-2009 11:36 PM
Getting back to the question Pal asked about the research behind the numbers, respiratory rates listed in physiology texts may or may not be representative of how fast people breathe when they are taking a polygraph examination. When the DoDPI research division got underway in 1987, one of the first studies we conducted was in collaboration with a Federal agency to determine the “normal” respiratory range during a polygraph examination. Norman Ansley collected a large number of polygraph charts obtained by the selected agency on applicants whose background investigations revealed no disqualifying information and who were NDI on their test. He manually counted their respiratory rates and tabulated the frequencies (this was prior to computerized polygraphs, much less PolyScore). We operationally defined “normal” as being the 95% of the population closest to the mean. That is, by our definition, the slowest 2 ˝ % would be considered “abnormally slow” and the fastest 2 ˝ % would be considered “abnormally rapid.” In a security screening polygraph, those cutoffs turned out to be 10 and 24 breaths per minute, respectively. Keep in mind that this is a statistically based definition of abnormal, not a psychological one. Breathing “abnormally” slowly is not necessarily a countermeasure by a person who’s lying, but the odds are good that it’s a deliberate effort by the examinee, be he truthful or deceptive, to keep calm and avoid reacting. Just my two cents; take it or leave it. Gordon
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